Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gaelic games/Archive 2013

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Video Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gaelic games/Archive 2013

Renaming of many GAA articles

Are editors happy with the campaign by Laurel Lodged to rename, without any discussion, many GAA pages to insert "GAA" after the name of the relevant county? Thus:

• Antrim Minor Football Championship was moved to Antrim GAA Minor Football Championship
• Antrim Senior Football Championship Antrim GAA Senior Football Championship
• Antrim Senior Hurling Championship was moved to Antrim GAA Senior Hurling Championship

and so on, and on, and on...

Laurel Lodged has past form on renaming swathes of articles without consultation, but in this case it seems to be particularly pointless - who other than the GAA organises hurling championships? Brocach (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

You're wating your time here Brocach. Nothing but tumbleweed passing this project. But for the record, what about that GAA County Board known as London GAA? If the word GAA was removed from the title, would you recognise it? Which of the following are Gaelin Football and which Association Football (no cheating now): London Intermediate Football Championship, London Intermediate Cup, London Senior Cup, London Senior Football Championship, London Challenge Cup. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

If I'm "wating" my time here I might as well just revert, but I prefer to allow discussion. You have not changed London to London GAA - as you know, the wrecking you have done has been at articles below GAA county level. I don't recognise any "Gaelin Football" items among the titles you mention but as a former member of London GAA I do of course know the names of London Gaelic football competitions. Brocach (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion would be nice . It would also be nice if the process was completed. There is stuff all over the place now Gnevin (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The solution is to revert the many title changes made by Laurel Lodged without discussion. No-one asked for all of these articles to be renamed to insert "GAA", when none of the competitions contain "GAA" in their names. The reasoning subsequently advanced is spurious: no-one else runs hurling competitions, and Laurel hasn't come up with a single instance of any other GAA competition name that is identical to a non-GAA competition, so that one article name or the other needs to be changed; he/she appears to have renamed all these articles 'just in case' any confusion might arise. Even if such an example could be found, it doesn't follow that it is always the GAA article that should change. Unfortunately, the dozens of changes made by Laurel can only be reversed by an admin (with time to spare). Brocach (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I largely agree with Bronach on the changing of titles withiut any discussion. The Armagh Senior Football Championship is not known as the Armagh GAA Senior Football Championship. Each of the articles should indicate that it is a Gaelic football or hurling competition organized by the Armagh GAA board. This should be the case for all counties. The only exceptions to this would possibly be London or New York or any other GAA competition organized outside of Ireland. This should be the case fro football anyway as there are certainly different versions and others are usually better known on the other countries. If we follow Laurel's pattern than we will have to rename every sporting competition to include the name of the association also. This is already done in competitions that have duplicate names, such as the Munster Senior Cup in rugby and soccer. I do not think we need to do that for every competition. Pmunited (talk) 20:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Laurel Lodged's renaming process, however it should of been brought to discussion first as it is on such a large scale. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

As Laurel Lodged didn't bother to persuade anyone why the names should "of" been changed, can you suggest any reason, Mabuska? Brocach (talk) 22:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Not bother? Did you even read my first contribution above? I thought that it cut to the heart of the matter. You may have been distracted parsing the contributions for spelling errors. I'm sure we're all grateful for your OED (or should that be OTT?) corrections. Anyhoooo....to make my point a tad more explicit. Firstly, "GAA" refers not to the competition but the sponsoring administrative body (e.g. Ulster GAA). Secondly, the name follows the name of the parent article (e.g. Ulster GAA). Thirdly, it disambiguates from other football competitions that might take place in Ulster from time to time - such as soccer, for example. Fourthly, neither Ulster GAA nor any other GAA "county" has a monopoly on the name "Ulster" or any other "county" among sporting bodies in Ulster or elsewhere. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Your first comment above explained nothing whatever. It flew off at a tangent about London.

(1) The name of the competitions does not include the term "GAA". By renaming articles to insert "GAA" and disrupt the name of the competitions, you instantly make the articles less accurate and less useful, and in every case, you have left the bolded name in the lede in disagreement with your imposed title.

(2) As for the notion that the name of the "parent article" must determine the name of all others, can you explain why, for example, World Series isn't called "Major League Baseball World Series"? Why Pro 12 isn't "Celtic Rugby Limited Pro 12"? Why the Wimbledon Championships aren't listed as "All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club Championships, Wimbledon" and so on ad nauseam?

(3) How many other organisations in Ireland organise hurling competitions? Can you give one - just one - example of a GAA-run competition that shares its name with a competition in any other sport?

(4) Have I, or has anyone else ever, suggested that the GAA has a monopoly on county or province names?

I try to be polite here but your arrogance in unilaterally and pointlessly renaming dozens of GAA articles would try the patience of a saint. You must stop renaming huge numbers of articles without even attempting to explain yourself, never mind seek agreement. You are a vandal. Stay away from the GAA articles unless you are prepared to be civil and constructive. Brocach (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship .Requested move here Gnevin (talk) 13:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Just because we have disagreed frequently on this point does not mean that you are right and I am wrong. Quite the opposite - most of your proposals re GAA have been defeated. Other forums have suggested that it you who is disruptive and that you should be topic banned. Up to this point, I have refrained from ad hominem attacks and tried to let the logic speak for itself. I will try to continue with my usual style of attacking the ball instead of the man, despite the temptation to do otherwise. Regarding your point "The name of the competitions does not include the term "GAA". At no time have I suggested that it does. This is a strawman argument. The name refers, not to the competition but to the competition's sponsoring body. So in long hand it would read "The senior level hurling competition organised by the County Board of Foo". As this would be a bit unwieldly, contractions must be employed. The current name is IMHO, the most attractive while serving a useful disambiguation purpose. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Note a parallel discussion is taking place here. It would be nice if we could agree on a common forum. We wouldn't want to encourage forum shopping. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:51, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I see that Brocach has ignored my warning about forum shopping and has done precisely the opposite by opening a slew of discussions instead of centralising the discussion here. How exactly is that supoosed to result in a consistent decision? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is only happening because you, Laurel Lodged, suddenly and unilaterally moved dozens of GAA articles away from the WP:COMMONNAME titles where they were created and, in most cases, had sat for years. You left others of exactly the same format unchanged, so consistency clearly matters little to you. I have posted on some - by no means all - of the moved pages to draw attention to the discussion going on at Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship; you will notice that not one of the talk pages on which I have posted is among those listed at London for reversion. The many, many pages that you moved without discussion, never mind consensus, can only be moved back to their correct titles by an admin, because the cack-handed way you moved them resulted in a bot cleanup that adds to the history and so blocks straightforward editor moves. The amount of work that that will involve for one or more patient admins will be tackled more enthusiastically if more people participate in the discussion. That will only happen if people who use the GAA articles are made aware of what you have done and where it is being debated. Brocach (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Maps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gaelic games/Archive 2013

Carrig and Riverstown GAA article speedily deleted

"An article I created on Carrig and Riverstown GAA was nominated for Speedy Deletion and has now been deleted, speedily, before I could gather my thoughts. I believe that it is as notable as any other GAA club but its only my personal belief. The club is unusual as it straddles the Tipperary Offaly border with both Carrig and Riverstown in Tipp but the club playing for Offaly. Can anyone write an article in a way that makes it notable?

Belmonter (talk) 22:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Info on nomination below:

A tag has been placed on Carrig and Riverstown GAA requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Cindy(talk to me) 15:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)"

Did you keep a copy of the page? If not, can you obtain one from the link above? Which editor nominated this, on the face of it, interesting example of a cross-border club for deletion, and have you engaged with them? Brocach (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

What a pity that the article was deleted. It would have been a perfect example of how "Tipperary GAA Clubs" (or "Tipperary GAA hurlers") is not co-extensive with "GAA clubs in County Tipperary" or "GAA hurlers from County Tipperary". I'm sure that some of those Carrig and Riverstown players would be highly insulted to be called "GAA hurlers from County Tipperary" if they were born in County Offaly. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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FYI

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_January_3#Category:Tipperary_hurlers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armagh GAA Senior Leagues Gnevin (talk) 15:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

src: womensfootballarchive.files.wordpress.com

Unjustified change of category name

There is now one anomalous GAA category, "Tipperary GAA hurlers", which has just been renamed from the format followed for every other county, where "county hurlers" is rather than county GAA hurlers". The name of the team that GAA county players play for is, in every single case, one word - the name of the historic county, without adding "GAA". Anyone on this page will also probably know that all hurlers are GAA hurlers. The renaming was effected by an administrator following a discussion [here]. I believe that this was a mistake and have asked the admin to reconsider. If that is not successful I will propose reverting to the long-standing "Tipperary hurlers" category.

There were three move proposals made; the first (by Laurel Lodged, an editor with a history of moving multiple GAA pages without discussion, so this at least was a small advance) was to move to "Hurlers with Tipperary GAA", and this received one other vote in support. The second proposal was to move all GAA sportsperson categories to the format "county GAA sportsperson", which would mean e.g. "Tipperary GAA hurlers", "Cork GAA camogie players", "Tyrone GAA Gaelic footballers", "Dublin GAA Gaelic handballers" - affecting potentially over a hundred categories just at the county level, but categories like this also exist for provinces and for individual GAA clubs, of which there are over 2,500. This second proposal had two votes in favour: the proposer, who may or may not have been joking, and the proposer of the first option who changed his/her vote. There were then three votes in favour of renaming this one category, Tipperary hurlers, to "Tipperary GAA hurlers", with no mention of a wholesale renaming of all GAA player categories. Three editors voted against any renaming. The final score: option 1, 1 vote; option 2, 2 votes; option 3, 3 votes; no change, 3 votes. This was somehow interpreted as justifying the renaming of "Tipperary hurlers" to "Tipperary GAA hurlers".

As an editor of many GAA articles I feel strongly that this move was wrong in itself, in that it creates one category that differs from every other county hurlers category, and in that it is tautologous: all hurlers are GAA hurlers, just as all camogie players, Gaelic football players and Gaelic handballers are GAA people. Bit if I am wrong and the move was right in the case of Tipperary, every other GAA category should be renamed to that format. Do you support that, or do you think that the category should revert to "Tipperary hurlers"? Brocach (talk) 10:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

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Proposal affecting hundreds of GAA articles is being discussed elsewhere

For reasons unknown, an editor - Mabuska - has chosen to sidestep this page and bring to WkiProject Ireland proposals that could result in hundreds of unnecessary changes to GAA articles, all posited on a false claim of a breach of the Irish manual of style in relation to Derry GAA. Anyone interested in the quality of Wikipedia's GAA content should have their say. Brocach (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Reasons unknown? What chutzpah! Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, of course, you think that "Nothing but tumbleweed pass[es] this project". Your conduct in relation to renaming well-established GAA articles tells me that you are pursuing an agenda here that has nothing to do with improving the coverage of the GAA on Wikipedia. Brocach (talk) 23:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

What's that? My hearing aid must be unplugged. Laurel Lodged (talk) 00:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

More unnecessary renaming of long-settled GAA categories proposed by the same individual here [1], and an attempt to have me banned here [2]. Brocach (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

This is a disgrace. I heartily support the proposal to ban the same individual and all other disruptive types and their sidekicks. Up with this we should not put. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Can we talk about this in 1 place . There are 6 discussions going on now , 2 category moves ,2 page moves, 1 at IMOS and 1 here Gnevin (talk) 11:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

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Article and category naming conventions

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Categories for Hurling clubs in Ireland

Category:Hurling clubs in Northern Ireland by county and Category:Hurling clubs in the Republic of Ireland by county, which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for merger to a new Category:Hurling clubs in Ireland. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 15:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

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GAA club championships categories

Category:Antrim GAA club championships and 31 other similar categories (all sub-categories of Category:GAA County Championships), which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming from X GAA club championships to the title X GAA County Championships. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

See also a slightly-related proposal at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 2#County_Football_Championships_by_year. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs)

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Conclusion of GAA categorisation discussion

First of all, thank you everyone for a carefully and civilly conducted discussion. This arose from a rather less ordered AN/I discussion which I closed with the request to discuss the naming and categorising conventions here.

I judge that proposals 1, 2,4,5 and 7 had an undeniable consensus or even unanimity. Proposal 3 was in my opinion also carried by consensus. That leaves proposal 6. I was persuaded by the arguments against making an exception for Derry GAA and there was a clear majority against the proposal. However it was a less than 2:1 majority, there were a total of only 17 editors voting and the subject touches on one of the most sensitive naming policies on Wikipedia. So I propose to refer on the decision on whether or not an exception should be made for GAA categories relating to this county. I have posted a request at the IMOS talk page summarising the agreed results and asking for a decision about the Derry/Derry GAA problem.

While I think the decision here on proposals 1-5 and 7 is uncontroversial, please do NOT start implementing this until folks at IMOS have had their say. I said at AN/I that I would block anyone making changes to categories before final agreed consensus and that still holds good. I will summarise below the agreed proposals and provide a link to the IMOS talk page discussion. The agreed, defeated and no-consensus proposals will be copied to the IMOS talk page.

Agreed proposals

• Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X Intermediate Football Championship", not ""X GAA Intermediate Football Championship", unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
• Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not include the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
• Titles of categories of people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X hurlers", not "X GAA hurlers"; "X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers".
• Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played, i.e. "Category: X GAA hurlers" or "Category: X hurlers" should include people who have hurled for X, regardless of their place of birth or residence. Players who have played for more than one county should be included in both county categories. Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career.
• In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative" county, i.e. "Tipperary", not "South Tipperary"; "Dublin", not "Fingal".

Defeated proposal

• The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties.

No-consensus proposal

• Derry GAA should be exempted from all the above proposals, and IMoS should be amended to clarify as such.

Thank you again for a calmly conducted discussion on a topic where I know feelings were running high. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but how did you come to that conclusion? I'm aware of WP:NOVOTE but it was 11 v 6 . The Derry proposal was defeated Gnevin (talk) 11:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I explained my reasoning above for referring proposal #6 on to IMoS. In most other cases I would have judged the consensus to be against the proposal. However this proposal relates to one of the most contentious naming disputes on WP, and is arguably just as much if not more within the purview of IMoS. So it does no harm to play safe and let IMoS have a look at this as well. There is no rush. If there are no dramatiuc new insights we can confirm the defeat of the proposal - but if there are further insighs it would be good to have them. Either way, letting the maximum number of people have the opportunity to comment is the best way of making the eventuald ecision stick. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 14:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Gnevin Wikipedia is not a democracy, we don't outvote each other. Straw polls are used to see what way the community feels about an issue and if no-one objects then you can call a consensus however at 6 versus 11 there is no consensus of any form so Kim is quite right to declare it as non-consensus.

Despite that I think the discussion on Proprosal 6 was moving in the right direction and in an amicable manner meaning that it could be dealt with quite quickly, most likely at IMoS as it is an IMoS issue as far as I am concerned. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I did link to WP:NOVOTE in fairness and to me the CON is very clear but if it please everyone involved we can let it roll for a other while Gnevin (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, in almost any other case I would have judged the consensus to be against proposal #6. However this is such a contentious issue that it seemed sensible to make sure IMoS could have a say too. If the discussion there has similar numbers voting and arguments produced, than I will have no hesitation in declaring that the consensus is indeed against the proposal. There is no deadline on Wikipedia, and it's more important to get this decision right than to get it quickly. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 15:05, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

A note on implementing the agreements we came to above. As I said inthis closing edit I do ask people not to start recategorising until IMoS has had its say. There is absolutely no urgency about this. Please desist from any recategorising, renaming or other implementation of the decisions we took at WT:GAA until the IMoS discussion is closed. I will regard people hastily implementing this as potentially disruptive and therefore blockable. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 22:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Apologies, I overlooked that point in the note above and started reverting some of the changes in line with consensus. I'll stand back for now. Brocach (talk) 00:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Closing decision

Nobody has commented adversely on the agreed consensus points described above. On the debated point, the only new voices at WP:IMOS have added their weight to opposition for a special case for Derry GAA. I judge the consensus is that Derry GAA should be treated in the same way as Galway GAA and any other association when it comes to titling and categorising pages. When it comes to making reference in body text of articles, from what I can see there will be little or no changes needed. Typically a piece of text might say "Tippereray beat Dublin..." and the effect of defeating the proposal for a special case for Derry GAA is that text involving a Derry GAA team would also say ""Derry beat Galway..." rather than, uniquely, "Derry GAA beat Galway..."

The consensus arrived at here is clear and has been throughly discussed and may now be implemented. Please however do not regard this as a battle in which one side has emerged victorious. In particular, it would be odious if any kind of celebration or victory dancing took lace. I'm thinking particular;y of the obscure conflict that seems to be in place over Tipp vs North Tipp and South Tipp. This seems to have nothing to do with WP:TROUBLES but has some more personal root. Please edit like collegial collaborators, not roleplaying gamers. Over to you. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 11:32, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

src: www.students4bestevidence.net

Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers

Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming to Category:Tipperary hurlers. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 15:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

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Format for club articles

As a respite from the interminable terminological pericombobulation, I have put together a suggested format for club articles, as already exists at the project page for counties and bios; there is quite a lot of variation in existing articles of this class, but most articles have most of the suggested heading in more or less the same order. Project members are welcome to suggest (or just make) any improvements. Wikipedia:WikiProject Gaelic games/club Brocach (talk) 16:07, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

why not have GAA_County: in the infobox rather than just a pipelink? Same issue is going to arrise. In terms of clubs if infobox says County:Derry people are going to think Derry is the name of the county, and not just in GAA terms.Factocop (talk) 16:23, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

The term "County" as shown in the infobox refers and has always referred to the GAA county, and the name shown is the actual name of the relevant GAA county. It's never been a problem and not many people will read a GAA infobox as some sort of political propaganda; in fact, anyone who takes enough of an interest in Derry GAA matters to read an infobox for a Derry GAA club will know exactly what "Derry" means in that context. The format is for articles on GAA clubs worldwide, not just in the GAA county that has, for 125 years, been called Derry. Brocach (talk) 17:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Apologies Brocach, given your edit history, its got me questioning your motives especially when it comes to counties in Ireland. I agree with your points completely, only for those people who have never heard of GAA, roughly 6billion people, it may be a little confusing for them. I have read many wiki pages in passing that I would have little or no interest in, so to say that only those interested in GAA would be reading the page is a bit off. Factocop (talk) 08:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

If you havent been following any of the county name related threads Factocop, a brief condensing is Dublin is five counties, Cork- one counties and one admin area and so on. A GAA county is more or less the same as the older traditional counties. Confused still ? Murry1975 (talk) 09:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah just because there has never been a County Derry in the history of Ireland so if we are talking traditional counties, I see no mention of County Coleraine. Confused still?Factocop (talk) 09:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Ignore him and he'll go away. Scolaire (talk) 12:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

And then someone else will mention it. The Banner talk 19:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Scolar, ignoring a perfectly rationale point is hardly inkeeping with the spirit of wikipedia? rather than ignore my point, why not respond with a rationale point of discussion, if you have one that is? to ignore my point is to admit that what I am saying might just be correct.Factocop (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Factocop, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. A clear consensus has been arrived at, by a lengthy and inclusive process. I understand that you disagree with the position we've reached but sniping away is not productive. Please either use a formal process to challenge the decision I made on consensus, collaborate with the agreement and implement it despite your reservations, or take this and other pages off your watchlist and stop poking. It's not productive and, if persisted with, is likely to become disruptive. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 09:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Kim, are you blind? I did not raise this line of discussion, Brocach did. You would need to ask them what their motives are, not me. I have simply made points as to why I think the template proposed by Brocach could be confusing. I have made a point highlighting that GAA counties are not solely based on traditional historical counties. I await a response to that comment from anyone opposed to my opinion.Factocop (talk) 10:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

No I'm not blind - but you might want to adjust your manner of discourse if that's your usual way of working collegially and co-operatively. You've made your points but I don't see anything new in them that wasn't covered (and rejected) in the original consensus-raising discussion. You cannot use this forum as a means of challenging a consensus which has just been reached after an exhaustive and fully inclusive process. You can ask for responses but I'd recommend that people not offer them, as to do so will only reignite a discussion which has just now been concluded. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 11:01, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Apologies Kim, I was treating this topic as separate from the previous discussion, given that it was opened on a new discussion thread. Lets be honest, using 'Derry' on wikipedia will always raise eyebrows, and though there is consensus, it does not guarantee neutrality or at times, fact, unless you can safely say that those canvassing their votes are of a neutral point of view, which is just not possible. If you look at the Londonderry talk page, there were more users for than against for a change to call the page 'Londonderry' instead of 'Derry' yet the consensus was sweeped under the carpet and ignored. There has to be an end to this anti-british editing culture that is sweeping wikipedia. Ill drop this now, but Ill continue to canvass and edit for neutrality and fact on wikipedia pages. I hope you can do the same. Peace out.Factocop (talk) 11:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Factocop, I appreciate your self-denying ordinance! Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 11:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Moyne-Templetouhy hurlers?

Category:Moyne-Templetouhy hurlers, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Finnegas (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Renaming of per-county GAA club navigational boxes

See Template talk:Dublin_clubs#Requested_move, where I have opened a requested moves discussion on the 35 navigational box templates in Category:Gaelic Athletic Association club navigational boxes.

These templates all fall within the scope of WikiProject Ireland and WikiProject Gaelic games, and some of them fall within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland. I will therefore place the same notification on each project's talk page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 12:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Using default navbox colours

Per WP:NAVBOXCOLOUR I think we should agree that our navigational template use the default colours as efforts like [3] are very hard to read. When clubs and counties where picking out their colours they didn't consider how they would look in an on-line format. For the few cases that look ok we've numerous cases that are very hard to read Gnevin (talk) 14:43, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Ambiguously-named by-county categories for hurlers and Gaelic footballers

I have just been doing a big tidyup of the overcategorsiatoion of articles on GAA players. Thousands of them were both in Category:Foo hurlers and Category:Sportspeople from County Foo, which is unnecessary: an article should not usually be in both a category and that category's parent. This just clutters up the sportspeople category with pages more easily found in a discrete subcat, and adds category clutter to the articles. If anyone else wants to monitor this in future, the relevant tools are linked from User:BrownHairedGirl/GAA overcat.

In the course of doing this, I noticed a logical glitch in the category structure, which arises from the ambiguous names of our current categories.

Look for example at Category:Cork hurlers. It is for "sportspeople who have played hurling for Cork GAA". That is, people who have played for the county team.

However, it has lots of subcategories for hurlers-by-club, such as Category:Avondhu hurlers?, Category:Imokilly hurlers?. Many of these people are notable only because they played for the county team, but some are not. Plenty of people are categorised by club, but never played for the county. They are notable for their achievements outside of hurling, such as in politics or other sports.

These people should not in a subcategory of for "sportspeople who have played hurling for Cork GAA".

The solution is to move the club categories to a separate parent category, so that have something like:

• Category:Hurlers from County Cork
  • Category:Hurlers from County Cork by club
    • Category:Avondhu hurlers?
    • Category:Imokilly hurlers?
    • Category:Nemo Rangers hurlers
    • Category:Sarsfield's hurlers (Cork)?
    • etc
  • Category:Hurlers who played for the Cork County team

The proposal last month to rename the county-team category to Category:Cork GAA hurlers was no solution, because all hurlers are GAA hurlers; it added verbosity without adding precision. But does anyone have any suggestions for a better name than the rather clumsy Category:Hurlers who played for the Cork County team? It needs to be something which clarifies the scope in the same way.

Whatever solution we devise should be applied to all 32 counties, and to both hurling and Gaelic football. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 15:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Agree entirely that the approach should be common to all 32 counties in Ireland, and to all GAA codes. The present format works well and doesn't need to be changed.

Anyone going to Category:Derry hurlers, for example, should certainly be able to see a list of articles on men who have hurled for Derry, but the subcategories of hurler-by-club are also useful to have there in that they show at a glance which clubs are more or less significant in the county's hurling history. Over-categorisation surely includes inventing tortuously-named categories that serve very little purpose in relation to (a) the effort needed to create and maintain them, and (b) their usefulness to readers of Wikipedia articles on GAA matters. All hurling clubs in any GAA county are, in principle, able to supply players to county teams, and on the first 20 articles I checked, it was only inter-county players that were listed as "Xclub hurlers". Thus, the by-club categories are genuinely subcategories of men who have played for their county. If there are any exceptions, so that an odd hurling club gets listed as belonging to "Derry hurlers" when it may not yet have provided a hurler for any county team, no harm is done. Brocach (talk) 23:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to say I entirely disagree with that statement. We are here to present the facts not fudge them Gnevin (talk) 09:36, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest Cork inter-county hurlers Gnevin (talk) 09:37, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Cork inter-county hurlers, or Cork senior inter-county hurlers if it is in fact confined to such. I don't see why it would be necessary to have an intermediate subcategory for club players, by the way, especially since all inter-county players are also club players. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 20:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

On further reflection, I'm more inclined to agree with Brocach. Perhaps the top-level category needs to be redefined rather than making what may be an unnecessary alteration to the category structure. My reasoning is based on notability criteria. How often will a club player who never played at inter-county level be notable? Of course there may be people eligible to fit into these categories who are genuinely notable for entirely different reasons, but recategorization may give us an unnecessarily elaborate and cumbersome category structure given the numbers involved. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 20:27, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

ComhairleContaeThirnanOg is of course right that all inter-county players are also club players. However, the problem is that not all club players are also inter-county hurlers, and we have dozens of articles on such club players ... all of whom are now categorised as if they were inter-county hurlers. That's simply wrong.

Take for example Category:Cork Gaelic footballers. All the club players are in a sub-cat Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club?, and if we adopt Gnevin's elegant proposal of "Foo inter-county Gaelic footballers", the change I am proposing would simply move the inter-county players to Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers.

Brocach is quite right that the category names I suggested were tortuous, and I specifically acknowledged that in my opening post. But Gnevin's proposal resolves that, and in the case of Cork's Gaelic footballers, the category structure would be:

• Category:Cork Gaelic footballers
  • Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club?
    • Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers
    • Category:Imokilly Gaelic footballers
    • Category:Nemo Rangers Gaelic footballers
    • etc
  • Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers

That means only one new category, and the increased precision would add only 13 characters to the category list of Cork's inter-county footballers. There is nothing elaborate or cumbersome about this, and it removes the inaccuracy inherent in the present structure. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 23:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Hang on. Are you saying that there are people in the Category:Cork Gaelic footballers who have not played for the county? As far as I have checked (and I confess I haven't gone through all 200+ articles) every individual in the Cork Gaelic footballers category is at the inter-county level, and only inter-county footballers are found by going to the Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club? listings. The new category is not needed unless there really are dozens of non-county players appearing in the club categories; but no-one should be found in "Cork Gaelic footballers by club" unless they are also individually categorised as "Cork Gaelic footballers", i.e. people who have played for Cork. So Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers would completely replicate Category:Cork Gaelic footballers and add nothing. I have been trying to think of a case where someone who hadn't been called up for the county might still deserve a listing under "Cork Gaelic footballers" - I am open to persuasion but I think the exceptions, if any, will be too rare to justify constructing and populating what would really be a duplicate category. Brocach (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Brocach, having been through these categories in great detail, I can answer that one: there are dozens of people in the by-club categories who were not inter-county players for Cork. Some of them are notable for having played GF for other counties, some for having played other sports (mostly commonly soccer or rugby union), and some for unrelated careers such as politics.

However, if you want take the view that no-one should be found in "Cork Gaelic footballers by club" unless they are also individually categorised as "Cork Gaelic footballers", then 3 things apply:

1. every sub-cat of Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club? should be renamed to clarify that it is only for inter-county players (e.g. Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers -> Category:Avondhu inter-county Gaelic footballers (or more precisely Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers from Avondhu GAA). Otherwise it will be misused.
2. The categories such as Category:Avondhu inter-county Gaelic footballers should all be purged of people who did not play for County Cork
3. All players who remain in Category:Avondhu inter-county Gaelic footballers should be removed from {{Cl|Cork Gaelic footballers, because per WP:SUBCAT, an article sould not usually be in both a category and its subcat.

This seems very tortuous. Much simpler to just have a separate inter-county category, as I proposed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 03:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I still don't see what having the intermediate subcategory Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club? adds other than an additional step in trying to find your way around these categories. Is there some reason we need it as opposed to having the Category:Imokilly Gaelic footballers etc as direct subcategories of Category:Cork Gaelic footballers ?

Also, as far as I can see, your objection to the current set up is based on it putting club-only players into Category:Cork Gaelic footballers, but the problem with that seems to be not that category itself, but how it is described. But that problem is solved by amending the definition to say that it is for "sportspeople who have played Gaelic football in a Cork club or county side" or something similar - and we're going to have to make that amendment anyway under your proposal.

I'm not particularly worried about these issues, neither is going to cause any real problem (though then again, neither does the current set-up), but maybe you could explain your reasoning in a little more detail? I may be missing something, I'm certainly not as familiar with Wikipedia category practices as you are.ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It is, I think, possible to agonise too much over categorisation, and in particular the 'crime' of overcategorisation. If the by-club categories contain some individuals who haven't played for the county side, but are otherwise notable enough to have their own WP article, that probably adds to rather than detracts from the value of the category. If somebody really famous (ok, WP-notable) played for a club, it may be quite helpful to WP users to see that name in the category, and those who need to know more can follow the link to find out when/whether he/she played for the county. Any 'harm' done by the slight loss of precision is more bearable than having to put everyone who actually did play for their county into a whole new, and almost wholly duplicated, category. Brocach (talk) 20:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that having non-county players in the club categories adds to the value of the club categories. That's why I was not proposing removing them, just pointing out that with they don't belong there so long as the categories are parented in a category of inter-county players. That's why I propose a slight re-arrangement.

My proposal does not involve a duplicated category. At the moment, the inter-county players are in "[Countyname] hurlers" as well as in a club category. If we implement my proposed changes, they would remain in the club category "[Countyname] hurlers", but move from "[Countyname] hurlers" to "[Countyname] inter-county hurlers". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o

(contribs) 23:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm really trying hard to understand this. The WP notability criteria for sportspeople say that in GAA contexts that means (or ought to mean) people who have played on a senior inter-county team. Is there a real issue about lots of players who have their own WP entries not actually having played at that level? If so, shouldn't we be culling the non-notables rather than accommodating them in the category structure? Brocach (talk) 23:52, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

There is a other logical issue with the proposed structure

• Category:Hurlers from County Cork
  • Category:Hurlers from County Cork by club
    • Category:Avondhu hurlers?
    • Category:Imokilly hurlers?
    • Category:Nemo Rangers hurlers
    • Category:Sarsfield's hurlers (Cork)?
    • etc
  • Category:Hurlers who played for the Cork County team

I know of cases who work in Dublin, are on a border and will play with a club because it's more convenient or a better standard . I also know of someone who hurls for Wicklow but is most definitely from Ballymun . Does Category:Hurlers from County Cork need to go on the individual article ?

• Category:Hurlers from County Cork
• Category:Cork club hurlers
  • Category:Avondhu hurlers?
  • Category:Imokilly hurlers?
  • Category:Nemo Rangers hurlers
  • Category:Sarsfield's hurlers (Cork)?
  • etc
• Category:Cork inter county hurlers Gnevin (talk) 09:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I can see the problem there, but I think it is easily avoidable if we avoid the word "from", and use the "Foo hurlers"/"Foo Gaelic footballers", which sidesteps the problems with "from". The main attribute we are trying to capture here is not where a player originates from, but where they played for ... and this structure avoids the problems:

• Category:Cork Gaelic footballers
  • Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club?
    • Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers
    • Category:Imokilly Gaelic footballers
    • Category:Nemo Rangers Gaelic footballers
    • etc
  • Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers

This involves creating only one new category. After the discussion above, the only objection I can see to this is that there is a lot of work in populating the new category. But per the spirit of WP:NOEFFORT, that's no reason not to move in the right direction. A week ago, I diffused a few thousand GAA player articles out of the "sportspeople from" categories; tweaking the categorisation of the inter-county players will be no more difficult. For example Denis Walsh would go from Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers+Category:Cork Gaelic footballers to Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers+Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers. That's a fairly simple job with WP:AWB. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 23:50, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Plus 1 from me Gnevin (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Sports is up for featured portal consideration

This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Wikipedia:Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Category:Gaelic football players

Category:Gaelic football players and 13 of its subcategories, all of which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming to "Gaelic footballers". If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 14:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

See also a related discussion at CFD 2013 April 18#Kerry_Gaelic_footballers_by_club, where the proposal is to rename categories from Category:Foo footballers to Category:Foo Gaelic footballers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 15:26, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:Inter-county football competitions

Category:Inter-county football competitions, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merger. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 12:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:1971 All Star (hurling)

Category:1971 All Star (hurling) and 24 other similar categories, all of which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated by me for merger or deletion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 12:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 29#All_Star_Gaelic_footballers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 15:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Map of Ireland - Hurling/Football dominance

This does not look correct to me. Baring a few small pockets, Waterford is almost completely hurling dominant as shown by inter county results. Very hard to push for Tipp as a dual county also. ManfromDelmonte (talk) 11:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

It needs a bit of nuancing: different colours for dual (predominantly hurling) and dual (predominantly football). I'll have a go at it. Brocach (talk)

New sports related IRC channel.

There is now an WP:IRC channel for collaboration between editors in various sports WikiProjects. It's located at #wikipedia-en-sports ^connect. Thanks Secret ^account 03:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Club article nominated for deletion

Please see this deletion proposal for an Antrim club. Brocach (talk) 00:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Article survived after extensive editing. Brocach (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission

This template submission is of relevance to this Project. Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Portal components at AfC

Please do not submit Portal components and content to the Articles for Creation process. AfC has no interest in this content at all. Portal components consist of various bits of code, not original text. Even the text components such a featured articles etc are not original content but are extracts from already existing articles. A Portal is the sole responsibility of the Project that runs it. Submitting code to AfC is often very confusing to reviewers who are not familiar with such stuff so they decline it as "nonsense". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:56, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:Gaelic Athletic Association stubs

Category:Gaelic Athletic Association stubs, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) o (contribs) 23:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Are GAA biography articles violating Wikipedia policies?

Please see discussion here. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Separate pages for Provincial Football championships

Is there any great need for the likes of following article 2012 Munster Senior Football Championship. The vast majority of this information is already contained in the All-Ireland article for the year which is where all the results IMO should go. On the other hand, no one seems to be doing Football pages for provincial finals as in what's being done for hurling pages (primarily Munster finals though) ManfromDelmonte (talk) 23:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Some of them have more than results though. Connacht 2013 has more details on London's run, for example, and there's always space for expansion. Some, like Ulster 2008, have been around since that time. The 2013 All-Ireland is currently at 60,000+ bytes. Per WP:PAPER "Keeping articles to a reasonable size is important for Wikipedia's accessibility, especially for dial-up and mobile browser readers, since it directly affects page download time (see Wikipedia:Article size). Splitting long articles and leaving adequate summaries is a natural part of growth for a topic (see Wikipedia:Summary style). Some topics are covered by print encyclopedias only in short, static articles, but we can include more information, provide more external links, and update more quickly." -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.197.78 (talk) 00:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Help at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Challenge Cup (shinty)

I know, shinty isn't the same as hurling, but if someone can help their associates on the other side of the sea, this novice editor has a good idea and a stub but needs a stronger draft to get approved: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Challenge Cup (shinty). MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Gaelic Football Final Main Page Event

A nomination of interest to this project has been made here. --95.45.82.197 (talk) 08:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Diarmuid Connolly

In response to a post at WP:BLPN, I've taken a look at our article on Diarmuid Connolly, and stubbified it for now, as it needs serious attention - both in regards to Connolly's sporting career, and to other matters (e.g. the incident leading to this [4]). Since I know little about Gaelic football, this seems the best place to ask for help regarding the sport side of it at least. If anyone has comments, I suggest they reply at Talk:Diarmuid Connolly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Source of the article : Wikipedia