Wikipedia talk:Articles for discussion/Proposal 1

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Consolidation

Maps Wikipedia talk:Articles for discussion/Proposal 1

Implementation

• To start off, I think this is a good sketch but a little minimal. I'd rather hold off on working on details until after Jan.2 or 3. But in the meantime, here are my arguments from WT:AFD:

1. It will bring disputed matters out to where people in general can see them
2. it will provide a simple solution to the current complicated multi-place discussions about the extent to which merges etc. are enforceable at AfD, deletion review, etc., or how to enforce them otherwise.
3. It will prevent evading the intention of AfD closes--in any direction.--I've seen all sorts of them.
4. It will end the meta discussions at individual AfDs and Deletion Reviews about what the true intent is, and whether AfD has jurisdiction over the proposal--as when a person nominates an AfD and says "delete, or at least merge" and is challenged for taking it to AfD.
5. It will simplify the repeated and sometimes circular movements of disputes over multiple stages and places. As is, we end up discussing the same thing repeatedly because nobody quite knows where to handle it.
6. It will greatly discourage edit warring over merges & redirects, by providing a place to reach an open decision.
7. Particularly significant, from other XfDs, we can see the advisability of keeping all options available at a discussion. It helps get the best solution, often one not thought of at first. Many such discussions end up with everyone agreeing on a somewhat different proposal.
8. Most important, it encourages compromise, which makes consensus much easier to obtain. It's highly desirable that we do reach consensus on things--consensus being defined as something everyone can at least accept. It might even remove a good deal of the incentive for multiple AfDs or re-creations. It will encourage working together, rather than trying to oppose each other. DGG ( talk ) 00:38, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

These are great points, which is why I already supported them at #Move a disputed merge to AfD, retitled Articles for Discussion. The proposal is a wiki page that anyone can edit, so I don't consider it ready yet. I, too, would like to work on the details later.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page when you say it is too minimal. The current text is an edited version of the lead section, and remained at about the same length. Maybe you got confused because I inserted new headlines, which makes it look like the proposal stands in for the whole page. That's not what I meant; I only left the body text out to simplify the discussion. Sorry if that caused confusion; I'll add a note about that. -- Sebastian 03:40, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The downside is that in many cases, this new term will sugar-coat the reality of what we're really doing in most AfDs - i.e. debating whether to deep six an article. When something is sent to AfD, we're not debating whether it should be discussed; we're debating whether it should be deleted. Therefore, they are articles nominated for deletion, not articles nominated for discussion.

Other than that, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea. The merges/etc. can all be viewed via templating on one central page, just like AfDs. I wonder if there is some other nomenclature we can use that more accurately describes the nature of these debates, while still keeping the discussion structure that this proposal calls for. Tisane (talk) 00:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

src: southfront.org

Questions that a proposal should address

A complete proposal should cover not only the consolidated process, but also details of the transition.

1. Which existing processes are included in the consolidation?
   • Deletion
     • WP:Criteria for speedy deletion
     • WP:Proposed deletion
     • WP:Articles for deletion
   • Mergers and splits
     • WP:Merging
       • WP:Proposed mergers
     • WP:Splitting
   • Moves
     • WP:Requested moves
2. Will all existing AfDeletion pages be moved, or will Articles for discussion be used on new pages only?
3. May a merger nomination be changed to a deletion discussion? Will nominations be segregated between deletion and merger?
4. How much (if any) of the existing merger process (Talk page discussion, WP:Proposed mergers) will remain separate?
   • If AfDiscussion is the only merger process, will it be required for all mergers?
5. Where will decisions be appealed (currently WP:Deletion review)?

This list is neither necessary nor sufficient, it's just what I think should be covered. Flatscan (talk) 04:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

2. Given the way Votes for Deletion was dealt with, I see no reason for a mass move. 4. Requiring a merge discussion would be imposing unnecessary bureaucracy. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

How was it handled? Special:PrefixIndex/Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/ shows both normal pages and redirects (italicized). From spot-checking, it appears that all VfDs after a cutoff in early 2005 were moved by a bot operated by User:Uncle G. Flatscan (talk) 05:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a consolidation; this is simply an expansion of the AfD process to include outcomes other than the binary delete/keep. Thus, it won't affect any other pages except in language, though WP:Proposed mergers will likely be rendered moot (thus, the answer to 3 and 5 is, there's no difference between the two). Regarding 2, if we kept all the old pages at "deletion" then we would have to create a new set of templates pointing to the new "articles for discussion" pages (or at least build in reverse compatability for templates pointing to the old pages), which would be template creep on a pretty significant scale. Nifboy (talk) 03:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• How I see it:

1. CSD and PROD should remain separate. I'm not sure what moving them here would even mean. Formal mergers would be completely folded in here; WP:PM would be marked historical. I'm not sure about moves, I'm not sure we need to put them here, as they aren't really subject to problems. I'm not necessarily opposed to it though.
2. I would leave them. I can't think of any problems with leaving them, and a lot from moving them. If a problem does exist, though, we might move them.
3. Non sequitur; the result will be whatever the AfD consensus is irrespective of whether the nomination argued for something else.
   
4. All formal merge processes will be folded here. I think we can allow merge discussions to take place like they normally do on talk pages; only contentious ones will be sent here.
5. I don't anticipate large numbers of discussions that aren't like AfD is now, so most will be deletion-keep binaries appealed at DRV. The numbers will be small enough, I imagine, that reviews of other decisions can be held at DRV without changing the pagename. ÷seresin 06:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

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I have to oppose this - sorry

I don't see the need to replace Articles for Deletion with something that changes the scope of it's purpose. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 14:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not a discussion about should it happen, this is a discussion about how to implement it. The discussion about doing it was well advertised, kept open for more than 30 days, and achieved significant consensus. See Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#Consolidation. SilkTork *^YES! 19:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

SilkTork describes that discussion accurately. However, I don't mind opposition raised here, as long as it stays in its own section and doesn't disrupt the other discussions. Flatscan (talk) 04:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I see much of that time was during the Christmas and New Year period. -Whitehorse1 05:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Tbsdy, and oppose this. From what I gather, one significant reason for proposing it should happen were incidents of users supposedly "merging" articles on which they either failed to obtain, or didn't care to go to the trouble of attempting to obtain, deletion through our various processes. Essentially this "merging" took the form of selecting all text and clicking 'delete'/'backspace', followed by adding a redirect to some other page and clicking save. That's page blanking without consensus rather than careful merging of two articles into one. We should advise such users that's unacceptable, so that they cease doing it; if they are unwilling or unable to stop, administrative measures such as blocking are suited. We should not pander to that behavior by changes to Articles for Deletion's scope, structure or purpose. -Whitehorse1 04:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Redirecting articles is not a blockable offense, nor is it unacceptable. I redirected Pasi Palmulehto to another article without merging anything, and without prior discussion, and I did it again after it was undone as well. This is part of the normal editing process. Fram (talk) 11:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with Whitehorse1. Deletion by merging is merely a method of by passing the normal deletion process, which is brought about by consensus. When Fram states that "This is part of the normal editing process," that's the problem. Some users are merely by passing the normal deletion process through unilateral merges. There should be a rule to end this. David Straub (talk) 06:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course articles that're unsourceable or lack notability yet are plausible redirects can be redirected, yes. That's long been part've deletion policy. -Whitehorse1 17:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Correct, it has long an ABUSED part of the merge policy. The specific examples cited at Deleting_an_article#Merging are "... information about family members of a celebrity who are not otherwise notable is generally included in, or merged into, the article on that celebrity. Stub pages about minor characters in works of fiction generally are merged into list articles." The example that Fram cites above of Pasi Palmulehto falls far beyond a mere family member or a work of fiction. The into to the article before it was blanked and turned into a redirect is "Pasi Petteri Palmulehto (born 1980-11-04, Turku)[1] is a Finnish politician who is currently the leader of the Finnish Pirate Party." Now I am not saying that article should have stayed on wikipedia, but it should have gone through the normal process for deletion nomination rather than a simple redirect, which is a backdoor method for avoiding any sort of communal consensus on deletions. David Straub (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Merging and redirecting are editorial actions that may be done and undone by any user. Since they generally do not require admin action, the normal editing process applies, including WP:Be bold, WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, and Talk page discussion. There were only a few comments at the previous discussion that supported closing this "loophole" by requiring AfDiscussion for mergers. Flatscan (talk) 04:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, if I would have brought that article to AfD, I would have been sent away in tar and feathers because AfD is not for merges and redirects. I like it that you don't dispute that the result of the redirect was correct, but that the method was incorrect, even though it is obvious (since it happened) that this redirecting is quite different from deletion, since it can be undone, and the previous version is there to see for everyone in the history. Fram (talk) 08:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

And if someone wonders why David Straub is here opposing my point of view, it is because I redirect an article of his to another article. Anyway, David, in what way is a chairman of a barely notable political party different from a character from a series or a member of a family? It is a "part of the whole", where the whole is notable, but the part isn't. A chairman of a party, a victim of a plane crash, a member of a band, ... are typical examples of things to merge or redirect. Fram (talk) 08:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Why are we re-discussing this? All of this has been covered already... I know, I'll pull the discussion from the archive and post it here.
-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 02:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

[redacted comment about since restored text]. -Whitehorse1

It would help if you'd at least skim over it, so that you could participate here with an informed opinion. You're bringing up points above which are either essentially irrelevent, or rehashing the same discussion over again. You don't like this idea, I get that and I appreciate it, but that doesnt' mean that you can just stonewall the whole thing. If you have suggestions which would make things more palatable to you, I'm all ears.

-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 03:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no need for that. Although the thread further up sidetracked as perfectly legitimate non-contentious ordinary merges along with suggestions of dispute between editors impacted discussion, I had read and thought before commenting. No harm in refreshing the memory with a reread from top to bottom though, so I'll continue doing that and add any further new thoughts below. Thanks. -Whitehorse1 23:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I oppose this, per all opposers above. I think AfD is good enough the way it is. Kayau Don't be too CNN I'LL DO MY JOB uprising! uprising! 10:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose I oppose this too as it seems to be creepy and chaotic. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• If nothing is changing then we don't need to do anything. Please get back to building the encyclopedia as this is not a bureaucracy. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't over think this

Folks, y'all are over thinking this. There's nothing to really oppose here, since the proposal is to simply change the process to reflect how it is currently being used. These opposes seem to be opposing the entire AFD process, which is way beyond the scope of this discussion.
-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 02:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What would happen to WP:BEFORE in the context of this new proposal? The title "Articles for deletion" clearly indicates that pages should only be brought to AfD if deletion is desired; the title "Articles for discussion" seems to advertise AfD as a venue for general discussion about articles. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 03:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

See the front of this page, and the earlier discussion about this above. The direct answer is "essentially nothing"... what do you think should happen?
-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 03:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I would have to oppose the renaming. It's a euphemism. It misleads new participants into believing that deletion isn't the major subject up for "discussion" and might lead them to believe its no big deal when in fact the article they have been working on for a week is actually on the chopping block. For me to support the renaming the only thing that should come out of a "discussion" is a recommendation that is then forwarded to the actual deletion trial. This proposal has things the other way around: Redirects for Discussion should be renamed Redirects for Deletion. Lambanog (talk) 03:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The version of the page when I posted is very different from the current version. If the only change is to rename AfD and WP:BEFORE still applies, then I have no strong opinion on the issue either way; I do, however, strongly oppose renaming AfD as part of an effort to consolidate merge or other processes with deletion, or to de-emphasize the point that articles should be brought to AfD only when deletion is desired. In my experience, discussions on talk pages are more likely to result in substantial improvement to articles than centralized discussions at AfD. Questions about the organization and reorganization of content (and that's essentially what merging is) do not need to be handled at a central venue. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 03:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I feel a bit like the man in the middle here, being attacked from all sides... The thing is, AFD already considers "Merge" as an acceptable response and outcome for AFD, so the proposal here isn't actually changing anything. That's what we discussed above at least (or, that's what I thought we were discussing). I feel the need to continue to reiterate what I said above: don't over-think this. This proposal started as a larger thing, but what was agreed to in the end was essentially nothing more then a simple rename.
-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 04:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Would you please clarify something for me? I've read most of the "Consolidation" discussion, and I saw at least four different proposals/contexts that might involve a rename:

1. Rename "Articles for deletion" to "Articles for discussion" to reflect the fact that "merge" is a valid option at AfD.
2. Rename "Articles for deletion" to "Articles for discussion" and make AfD the appropriate venue to discuss disputed merge proposals (DGG's proposal of 06:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)).
3. Rename "Articles for deletion" to "Articles for discussion" and make AfD the appropriate venue to discuss any merge proposals.
4. Rename "Articles for deletion" to "Articles for discussion" and make AfD the appropriate venue to discuss any issues related to articles, such as moving and merging.

There was also the initial proposal to incorporate {{prod}} and some of the speedy deletion criteria, but that seemed to lack consensus support. In which context does the current proposed implementation take place? I oppose the latter three proposals as Wikipedia:Requested moves handles pagemoves quite well, and I think that improving/nurturing/reviving Wikipedia:Proposed merges would be a better to handle merges than expanding the scope of AfD. As for the first one, I do not think that we would gain anything by renaming to "Articles for discussion". The fact that "merge" is a valid option at AfD will not be affected by renaming the process; what will be affected is the perceived scope of AfD. Thanks, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 06:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as I said above, the original post was more ambitious, and there was some discussion about going further. In the end, there was support for what you outlined in points #1 and #2, while #3 and #4 were touched on but rejected (not really explicitly, from what I remember; more like left by the wayside to get back to #1/#2). The first 2 seem pretty much the same to me. Regardless, DGG's proposal is what was ultimately RFC'ed, and what the votes/comments really applied to.
-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 18:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. I'm afraid I must still oppose, though, per my points above: I think that #2 can be handled better by pumping life into the Proposed merges process or requesting comment (RfC) through talk pages, and #1 can does not require renaming. Merging is something that can be handled through the normal editing process, including WP:3O, or through a Wikipedia:Requested moves-type process, and it would be inefficient to use AfD for it.

As I noted above, my experience has been that decentralized discussion on talk pages, perhaps advertised at a more central location such as a WikiProject talk page or RfC, is more likely to result in substantial improvement to an article (and with less "overhead", i.e., meta-discussion) than centralized discussion at AfD. The fact that AfD currently is titled "Articles for deletion" does not suggest that "merge" is not or should not be a valid outcome, but rather that an article should not be brought to a central discussion venue when the problem is something that can be fixed through normal editing processes. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 20:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I guess we're going to re-legislate this after all. I have a question for you now, based on what you said just above: Are you going to go running around AFD closing requests where the participants are seeking to merge? A second question: Are you going to "breath life into Proposed merges" yourself, and if so how? I'm not angry or anything, but considering that this is the third time around this topic... should I start another RfC?
-- V = IR (Talk o Contribs) 23:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The reason I made the proposal was the increasing difficulty in following multiple venues. At present, there is one central process for discussion of articles that gets attention, and it is AfD. The sort of merges that need central attention are the ones which in essence amount to the same major change in coverage of a subject as AfD does not the ones which are just style changes. I would encourage anyone discussing a merge to start off at the article talk page, with it moved to AfD only at request--and I would not even oppose keeping RM or some such place to list those which might be scanned to see which needed attention. I don't want to re-argue this--I argued enough already. It is one of the faults of policy decisions at Wikipedia that one or two people raising a stubborn object can prevent the implementation of consensus. Ohms, I see no reason why you should consider the basic discussion reopned because of this objection. Cf Liberum veto. DGG ( talk ) 01:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ohms, in response to your questions:

1. No, definitely not; I did and do support "merge" being an option and possible outcome in a discussion whose point, initially, is to seek deletion of an article. However, if a nominator initiates an AfD in order to request a merge (i.e., he or she has no desire for the article to be deleted), then I would express the opinion that AfD should not be used to request merges.
2. I don't know whether I alone could do it, but I will try over the coming days unless opposition is ignored and AfD is rescoped. As for the how, well... I think two steps are needed. (1) Clear the backlog of current requests for discussion. In light of the fact that there are currently only about 50 requests listed, this should not be too hard if a few editors become involved. (2) Advertise Wikipedia:Proposed merges as a location to request discussion or assistance regarding merges. I want to note that there is yet another option: using the existing process for requesting comment (RfC) through talk pages. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 06:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The community was asked about this, and they decided that it should be made within scope. The side supporting it had the consensus. You are out of order in personally trying to block it at this point--we have to settle something somehow. Policy changes. This one has changed. This is not appropriate behavior for an administrator. And yes, I would say the same if it were someone else's proposal than mine, or even if it were a proposal that I opposed.

Ohm's, the next item of business is changing the text in appropriate places. it does not have to be done all at once. The first step is changing the page title, the references to the title wherever they occur. The specific procedural matters can be discussed subsequently. DGG ( talk ) 23:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you have seriously misinterpreted the purpose of my participation here. I am not "trying to block", either personally or in conjunction with any other editors, anything (by the way, it's not just "one or two people" who voiced opposition in this section, as you suggested in your comment above, but several); I am merely expressing my opinion on the matter in light of the fact that I missed the original discussion. Surely, the fact that a matter is discussed and perhaps even settled does not mean that there can no longer be any discussion, criticism, or reconsideration of it. It's one thing to want to move ahead in spit of continuing disagreement, but it's another to suggest that those who disagree should simply remain silent or be ignored.

As I indicated to Ohms above, I do not intend to speedily close merge discussions brought to AfD (unless otherwise appropriate), and I also do not intend to undo any move to "Articles for discussion". What I have been doing is suggesting alternate means of addressing the concerns that were raised that do not involve renaming AfD, or that could be used in conjunction with AfD (either in its "deletion" or "discussion" form). -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 00:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. Of course things can always be reconsidered, but it is usually not a good idea to try to undo them immediately after they have been accepted. It might be a good idea to let this develop and try to have it organized so it is used only when necessary--just as AfD should not be used for deletion when prod is sufficient. . As I said above, I agree with you that it need not be the routine way of handling merges, just as AfD is not for uncontroversial deletions. Sometimes, though, a fairer decision is reached by a broader process. We have too many venues to keep track of, and it has unfortunately been known to happen that people have thus done, often unwittingly, actions which would not in fact have gotten general consensus. DGG ( talk ) 00:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

It would be better to combine AfD with RfD and MfD and any other XfDs and call them Pages for Deletion and have them discussed solely for deletion rather than creating a forum that is euphemistically and misleadingly named. Lambanog (talk) 02:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the idea of having a central venue to discuss controversial or complicated merges; my opinion was/is that a process as formal (and sometimes downright hostile) as AfD is not suited to being that venue. I guess I can see how the timing of my involvement (a by-product of seeing a link to this page at {{cent}} or one of the village pumps) may have made it seem like I was trying to block the change; I can't support the proposed change, but I also will not attempt to undermine it if it is what the community wants.

Out of curiousity, would you (or anyone else supporting this change) have any objection to Wikipedia:Proposed merges being a central venue for informally requesting merge-related assistance? Part of the reason that I prefer the format of pages like WP:PM and WP:RM for dealing with editing issues is that I view them to be more editor-friendly than any of the XfDs... -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 03:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+Coming into this new, I'm not sure why this is a controversial proposal. Proposed merges is pretty useless and should be put out of its misery. As well, there is a massive backlog of merge tags with discussions that never happened or never got closed, so that process kind of sucks too. I agree that the new name sounds kind of like a euphemism, and I don't think the rename is critical to the scope changing, so if there is opposition to the rename then just go forward with the scope change without the rename. It should be made clear that this process change doesn't forbid bold merges or talk-page discussed merges. Lets not oppose change simply because it's change. Some changes are good. Gigs (talk) 14:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

src: southfront.org

Summary?

It would help to have a summary of what has already gained wide consensus.

Also, I think that getting rid of "deletion" in the name decreases clarity. Maurreen (talk) 14:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, i understand that with respect to articles, discussion can mean discussing a whole range of things not more than whether to delete or merge articles --but in fact at AfD at present a whole range of things are discussed, even when there are other places also--we discuss BLP issues, copyright . articles by banned editors, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and all the rest, even when there are specific noticeboards. The name was patterned after Redirects for discussed and Templates for Discussion, , which were renamed similarly a number of years ago, and have not had any problems of scope. I can not immediately think of a better word, especially one that would begin with a letter D. DGG ( talk ) 19:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

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