Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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Video Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

Production sections and introduction sentences.

@Erik: generally likes in his production sections to begin with a introduction sentence reiterating who directed the film among other things, You can see an example of it here as well as currently on theIt Comes at Night A Quiet Place page I think these are unneeded as they just parrot information that the user looking at such a section would already be familliar with and that a well written article should not include these types of sentences. There was actually some back and forth on the Edge of Tomorrow talk page, with a third (and fourth) opinion being that such a sentence was unneeded. Recently, I tried to similarly cut the intro to A Quiet Place, only to have Erik revert me. I feel we should settle this once and for all. Are these sentences needed or are they just needlessly repetitive. --Deathawk (talk) 16:06, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

There is no need for a community-wide consensus on this matter. There is no policy or guideline that opposes or supports starting a section with the sub-topic's key details. Points and counterpoints could be made either way. The spirit of MOS:RETAIN should be applied as to prevent editors from enforcing the exact same approach across every article. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:49, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Everything in the WP:LEAD must appear elsewhere in the article (with citation). If there is some duplication elsewhere between other sections of the article, that indicates poor writing. --Izno (talk) 17:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

To frame the matter more simply, Deathawk does not think the "Production" section needs to open with any kind of sentence stating the key production details. They prefer more of a "hit the ground running" approach, where I prefer starting a new section with the "final" context rather than starting and proceeding strictly chronologically. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:03, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I think it will all depend on how the production works out. Some are more confusing than others and as with any project as a big as a film, it's never smooth. For example, I'm struggling a bit with my work on The Incredible Shrinking Man article (here). For example, the film began production before the book was published (!?) the films ending was argued about in pre-production, but after test screenings, it was agreed to leave it open-ended (where do I put that last bit?), special effects were shot during production, but more were needed when post-production went into play, so...where do I talk about the special effects? (!?!) . Its complicated. As for Erik's edit shown above, I think it would be able to fit that in, but maybe it would fit a pinch better after the film went unproduced for a bit? That information seems to flow better for me. I think Erik's info is important, as it will be useful that's going to be needed in the prose preferably to have it placed in the infobox, as the purpose of the infobox is to have content that's already mentioned in the article anyways. Just a matter of location I think. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:14, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

The "final context" is already stated in the the lead, repeating it just means readers will have to read it twice, which is by definition redundant.--Deathawk (talk) 18:36, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

There is so-called "redundancy" everywhere in a Wikipedia article. It's not like we have one lead-section sentence with the key production details and then the very first section in the article body with a very similar sentence. The lead section covers many different key details, and you're assuming perfect retention of all that no matter where they are in the article body. It's simply a reminder or reinforcement. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:30, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Deathawk inserted their comment before Andrzejbanas's and with an extra indent as seen here. I've already tried to tell them that per WP:THREAD, this kind of thing is not in order. Can someone please confirm this too? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:33, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Your read of it is correct, but most people don't bother making the change (as it is a very 'small' thing to try to enforce--we have bigger fish to fry). --Izno (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Did you read my comment about how WP:LEAD is required to be a summary of the article, which means you will have duplication between the lead and other sections? Is your issue actually the duplication (which is required by guideline), or is it that the flow of the section in question is disrupted because it is no longer time ordered? What is the issue? --Izno (talk) 20:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Izno:First of all I should note that I mistyped the film, the one in question is "A Quiet Place" and my issue is that, yes, it breaks the flow and is redundant. The production section is actually well written, to the point where it's immediately apparent who did what even without the opening sentence, therefore it's best just to remove it. The other problem is that if you ignored the plot details, you would be reading very similar sentences (The opening to the lead and the opening of the production section) within about thirty seconds of each other making it very stilted. If you want to view the difference between our two versions you can do so here --Deathawk (talk) 03:04, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:SIZE, the "fastest" reading generally done is around 333 words per minute (based on 10,000 words / 30 minutes). There are about 943 words between the first two opening sentences and the "Production" section (combining the rest of the lead, the plot summary, and the "Cast" section), so that means close to three minutes. :) Obviously, we know the film well at this point, but not everyone will. So I don't find it detrimental to reinforce the key production details within the article body after that much time absorbing the plot and the cast (assuming a straightforward read). Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:47, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Looking over the production section I guess my big problem with the section is that it begins with the statement "A Quiet Place is a production of Sunday Night and Platinum Dunes;[3] it was produced on a budget of $17 million.[4]" The two companies are never brought up again and while the budget is, it is only marginally so. It'd be better to keep these out of the production section if there is no context for it. I think if we got rid of these two sentences I would be fine with it. In fact it's actually a well written section with those changes made.--Deathawk (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

I would like to get some more eyes and opinions on this, if everyone doesn't mind there's a host of edits that Erik has done that uses this "introduction" format, which I do not think is appropriate. I'd like us to be able to settle this matter. --Deathawk (talk) 04:10, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

You have not explained why it is not "appropriate" to open a section with the key details of the sub-topic, especially as to try to ban such openings. You exaggerated that a reader would see the same information in mere seconds and have ignored that it would actually take a few minutes to get to the section. You're assuming perfect retention on the reader's part. There is nothing inherently detrimental about stating the key details. Some information is repeated throughout the article for different purposes. I don't see you throwing a fit that the lead section and the infobox have many of the same names in the same view. Isn't that too repetitious for you? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:36, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with this practice as it does seem ridiculous to keep repeating the same information when it is already clearly summarised in the lead and infobox, and we avoid other summaries like this such as giving our own summary of a film's reception at the start of that section. But, I don't think we need to be making an outright declaration on whether this can be done or not. Unless there is obvious consensus to avoid this practice, as there is with the reception summaries, then I think this should just be left up to local consensus at each article. I for one would not be keen on having this in an article I regularly edited, especially if I was trying to promote it to GA, but I'm not going to go to articles that do have it just to try and get it changed, if that makes sense. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

For an article like Edge of Tomorrow, with a pretty robust production section, I think it would be beneficial to weave the "lead in" content into the sections naturally. In an article like A Quiet Place, I'd probably suggest a more natural approach, but it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in this case. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Adamstom.97, not sure what you mean about reception summaries. You and others do have summary sentences for how critics received a film. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

By reception summaries I mean a sentence summarising the reception... can you provide an example of what you think "we" do have? - adamstom97 (talk) 04:22, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

@Erik: The problem is that you assume that the all readers are going to read the article in chronilogical order and I do not think we can reasonably make that assumption. For instance a Marvel fan who has not yet seen Avengers:Infinity War, but was interested in how it was made would most likely avoid the plot section. To that end, if one were to skip over that cast listing and plot point they would reach the production section in under one minute (109 words from below where the writers are mentioned) Now you may resonably say that I'm also making assumptions here, but really a well written article should serve both types of readers and if you look at my revision it retains more than enough context to remind readers of the key aspects, --Deathawk (talk) 03:59, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

That's true, so we don't really know how a reader will read an article. Maybe they'll read the "Production" section last. :) In any case, regarding A Quiet Place, you had a problem with that section opening with naming the director and his writing involvement. For the past week, though, the opening sentence has named the production companies and the budget, neither detail which is stated anywhere else in the article body. So is there even a problem with that particular case? Furthermore, you have not answered why you do not have a problem with seeing the same names repeated in the lead section and in the infobox. And is it fair to say that you are against the "Critical response" section reporting what critics overall thought of a film, even though we already say that in the lead section? Maybe we should just start quoting critics individually, right? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

For the production company to be included I feel there needs to be more context to it, otherwise we're just exporting data from the infobox just for the sake of it, which. I feel leads to an uneven read. Is there info about how Platinum Dunes was approached? Were there other companies involved? I feel that sort of stuff would provide the proper context for inclusion but to just say "A Quiet Place was produced by Company X" I feel doesn't really do any service to anyone. I think the budget could be placed in the "filming" subsection or possibly even the reception area. As for your question regarding the "Reception" section I'm not really sure, I don't really work a lot in those areas but my gut feeling is that it's a somewhat different beast because you are not repeating yourself by including such a sentences. For instance, if the first sentence says "A Quiet Place scored X on Rotten Tomatoes" You are not going to find that info further down. --Deathawk (talk) 06:16, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Maps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

BFI page move

Please see the discussion here. It was relisted overnight for more input. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Since the request was closed for the move, and BFI redirects to the article, the archived discussion is now on the dab page: Talk:BFI (disambiguation) Hoverfish Talk 18:28, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

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List of animated box office bombs at AfD

Please see the discussion here. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:38, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

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Draft:Chhote Nawab

Hello. Would someone be able to look at this abandoned draft and determine whether it is likely to be notable. Thanks, Espresso Addict (talk) 04:59, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

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Discussion at Talk:X-Men (film series)#Release table

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:X-Men (film series)#Release table. -- Alex^TW 13:01, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

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Ending the system of portals

Hello, there's a proposal to delete all Wikipedia portals. Please see the discussion here. --NaBUru38 (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

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Production section cleanup discussion

I started a discussion over at the manual of style talk page that I would like to get more eyes on. The link can be found here --Deathawk (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

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Quoting US release dates for non-American films?

Just reading our Victoria & Abdul article, and the penultimate sentence of the opening paragraph seemed weird to me. With American films, (I'm pretty sure?) we quote one non-American release date if it received wide release somewhere else first, but we don't add the British (or Australian or other Anglosphere) release date "just 'cause" if it was later than the American one (unless there is something noteworthy about it like it made a lot of money in opening weekend in a particular territory, I guess). Is theVictoria & Abdul article just out-of-step, or what? Hijiri 88 (???) 06:05, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we should remove it in this context. It's systemic bias that we need to counter. If the article had a "Box office" section, the US can be mentioned there with the relevant box office details as reported by sources. The US distrib should also be dropped (and mentioned elsewhere if needed) for the same reason. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:31, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I also agree about this being systemic bias. Hoverfish Talk 15:05, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the changes to the article. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:39, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

See also - WP:FILMDIST and WP:FILMRELEASE. If I had a (British) pound for every time I've removed the US release/distribution info from the infobox of a non-US film, I'd be slightly richer. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:53, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

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Merger discussion for List of accolades received by English Vinglish

An article relevant to this project--List of accolades received by English Vinglish--has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Mathglot (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

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Sound effect

Shouldn't article be moved to "Sound effects"? Eurohunter (talk) 19:59, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

No, not per WP:PLURAL. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:02, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

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Die Hard

There is a discussion in the talk page of Die Hard, regarding the cast section and plot summary of that movie. It's tied three-to-three. Me, Darkwarriorblake and Ducktech89 are in favor of keeping the plot summary and cast section as is while TheOldJacobite, Masem and Doniago are in favoring of removing the named henchmen on that movie. BattleshipMan (talk) 15:55, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

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Big time issue over at a few articles.

We have a big time issue regarding lack of sources over at a few articles, I reverted all edits made by User: 87.14.234.47 on three specific articles, including....

• List of Columbia Pictures films
• List of Digimon films
• Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group

If you will look at the edit logs for today, that user inserted unsourced claims stating that Saban Brands would be teaming up to distribute a new Digimon film reportidly named Digimon Heroes. That IP has been warned twice today and I will be bringing up similar discussion over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Digimon because the same IP also made unsourced edits claiming that there would be an English Dub of Digimon Universe: Appli Monsters. If we could have all hands on deck, that would be great. --IanDBeacon (talk) 21:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

@IanDBeacon: - Couple of options if the IP continues. You can request page protection for the article(s) concerned. This will stop IP edits for the duration of the protection. If they're simply being disruptive and continue after being warned to stop, then WP:AIV is the next step. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:18, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

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Plot notice

Template:Plot notice, which I created in 2010, recently survived TFD (with no preferred opinion from me). My thinking with this template was to encourage editors not to worry so much about how the plot summary is written (since it is rewritten again and again... and again). I wanted to bring it up here in case other editors see a potential use for it with newly-released movies whose articles are highly trafficked. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to add this to the "Useful Tags" section of the Project page? If so, we may want to consider other "core" templates that may be appropriate to add there as well. DonIago (talk) 14:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

It does look like a good idea to me Erik, I think it would be beneficial to champion its use and make others working on film articles aware of it. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:12, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

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User added "Plot Explained" section on Atomic Blonde

User Broomekw has added a new section called "Plot Explained" on Atomic Blonde article.[1] His reasoning when I asked him on his talk page, that because it's apparently complex plot, it needs to go into deeper detail. I feel the plot summary already gives a good explanation of the film's plot and doesn't need a entirely another section just to explain what has already been said in the plot summary. Can I get any other editors views on this?, thanks. TheDeviantPro (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

The section goes against WP:FILMPLOT which states "Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about information found in a primary source." Any analysis or interpretation of the plot would need to be accompanied by secondary sources. The section was pure WP:Original research so I have taken the liberty of removing it. Betty Logan (talk) 13:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

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Posters with torn edges

Like the films Hook (film) and In Bruges, the poster for the upcoming film The Wild Pear Tree has torn edges, so I uploaded the poster as it should be (and the only way it can be) as a PNG file. Another user had already uploaded a JPG file, which can only be a rectangle, thus filling in the edges with black. So when I uploaded the PNG file, the other user reverted back to the JPG file. And I don't want to start an edit war, so if it could be settled here that would be great. Thanks. -- Film Fan 12:18, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

"I don't want to start an edit war" Hahaha, mercy. Along with stalking/hounding this is all this user ever does. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:12, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the useful response. I've never been guilty of stalking/hounding, but well done for changing the subject, as always. You will never change. -- Film Fan 14:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Source of the article : Wikipedia